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Post by Captain Jeff on Jul 25, 2020 20:21:31 GMT
After todays meeting I have found that the topic of what is going to happen as we approach Return of the Jedi.
So, lets get talking about it. Here goes!
I do not feel the Campaign should end. We can go through the events of Return of the Jedi and keep going. The Empire doesn't just die with Palpatine, but it is a start as the New Republic forms and the battles and action to retake the galaxy continues. Perhaps we develop our own storyline entirely. I personally, feel we use the Thrawn Campaign material as our guide toward the future and keep the stories flowing.
It's been said that every story has a beginning, a middle, and an end..... yes stories do, but campaigns are a collection of stories that can continue without end. If players want the story to end they can choose to leave the story to the rest of us who want to see it continue.
There is a start, time to see where this goes!
Jeff G / aka Orzol Hazamar, etal.
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Post by garhkal on Jul 26, 2020 18:42:38 GMT
Even games should have an ending.. So i for one, wouldn't be sad to see the campaign end, then reboot with everyone starting new pcs...
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Post by jasony on Jul 28, 2020 0:06:37 GMT
I want to add my own two credits because this is something I've thought about before. We're not bound by the events of Return of the Jedi or any sort of cannon we could take things any way we want. That being said, Return of the Jedi is a big turning point. There should be several modules, perhaps even another 4-parter, dealing with the events. I can see missions that can include getting the shuttle, codes, perhaps even boarding the DS2 to make victory possible. A (not required) heroic sacrifice may even happen. When it's over, players will have to look at their character's motivations and see where they want to go from here.
History tells us that the hardest part about a rebellion is ruling afterward. The Empire will be crippled, not defeated, at Endor and the Rebellion will have to turn itself into the New Republic. The galaxy doesn't want to exchange one overlord for another even if the new boss is nicer. That may lead to a mission that goes against NR wishes (for its own good of course). There will still be pirates and other factions trying to take advantage of the post-Empire chaos.
Since the campaign has been about fighting for freedom, the next target would be the Hutt Empire and their slave trade. If the NR has to officially disavow the Crucible Sector's forces for the sake of diplomacy, we'd be back where we started, a rag-tag group of criminals doing good.
None of thise is official, of course, but since RoJ is such a turning point, I can see new character templates available to new characters that can only be played in post-RoJ modules. If a player chooses to retire a character their new character may get a bonus based on how many missions were run by the retiring character or something. Just thinking out loud.
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Post by Ryark on Jul 28, 2020 1:47:41 GMT
Hey all,
Please find my detailed thoughts on this below. I would also respectfully suggest that everyone running for council put down some thoughts on this for all to see. This is probably the most overall impactfull choice that the next council will make and I would suggest that everyone should be very aware if what they are voting for.
As far as im aware the primary arguments being presented by those pushing for a reset are power imbalance and the need to trim down the judges handbook and streamline the campaign rules somewhat.
Those issues need fixing but can be be fixed in any number of ways. Resetting the campaign actually has nothing to do with fixing those issues.
In an open ended skill system power creep will always be a thing. After a year new sheets will be just as blown away power wise by those of us who choose to create combat orieted characters and know how to do it. I know a certain someone whoose 2 sheet backup character can easily stand in combat with most high sheets and is rollong around 10D. The best way and ONLY way to have new sheet characters not feel blown away is to help them build a chatacter that lets them be good at what they wanna do quicky. One suggestion i have to to take the WOW expansion approach and let white sheets start with a litte more oomph instead of at sheet 1. Maybe they can assign 15 die instead if 7 and choose one primary skill to raise by 4, one secondary bt 3, and the rest sill capped at 2. That would make them about sheet 4 to begin and able to compete with higher sheets in their primary skills. Thats the skills that made them attractive to the Rebel Pec Force. Specifics and details can be worked out but thats one idea.
However, really, a mentoring program for new players is essential to this. I realize that this idea has been presented and stalled out before but i have some specific ideas and if elected will make this my baby and do everything i can to make it happpen with yalls help.w
We have to show people the universe we have created and get them passionate like the others who have been in this club for 20 years.
As for streamlining the rules thid again has nothing to do with resetting the campaign. The argument seems to center around gear and how without starting from scratch it would be overwhelming to try to reign it all in. The wealth if gear and detail is again part of what makes this feel like a higr active star wars universe. You lose something when you take that away. Thats already the problem with the combat jump/blast vest combo cause everybody and their mother has it so you lose some of the flavor and uniqueness of the characters.
I think the best way to deal with gear creep is a redressing of of the tiering system that uses individual tiering and makes sure that modules are appropriately challenging for all level sheets and all level sheets can sit together. It is very possible to do. As for the gear the credit value of gear you bring on a mission should add to your effective sheet level for tiering purposes just like droids do and ships too probably although the credit scale might be different. Say every 10k in gear is 1 sheet and every 50k in ship is 1 sheet something like that.
So how might this look in practice? This is a rough example. Lets say we have 3 individual tiers of characters: low (sheets 1-10, mid sheets 11-25, high sheets 26+).The judge can easy adjust dice rolls and perhaps even some checks for thise characters say mid sheets get 1.5x dice and high sheets gets 2x dice. The modules, especially early ones, could often stand and overall increase in difficulty anyway at this point.
Again the details and specifics are mutable and these are just a couple quick ideas but the main point is all that work needs to be done and will have to be done to fix the issues regardless of whether the campaign resets or not. All resetting the campaign does is take away characters that people are in love with and have invested in big time. I understand some people dott have that passion for their characters anymore and want a new one and thats awesome. This individuals are gonna start and new character and eother way. However i would respectfully ask anyone in that camp to think back to when they were really in love with their characters and consider how they would have felt if forcibly retired.
Which brings me to my next point. I have been part of organizations that habitually do resets every few years. It sucks. It kills continuity, character relationships, and overall character investment accros the board. You always lose people and some of those people are the people you enjoy playing with. So the people who are excited rarely stay that way once they realize how dramatically reduced peoples buy in is. Not to mention those were larp organizations where the ongoing story is constantly created by players. It would be 100x worse going from a incredibly detailed and content rich SPARKS universe to an effectively new setting with only a few modules and only prewittwn character backstorys.
Which (finally, i know) brikgs me to my final point. We have 25 years and 300+ modules of written content. Semi-retiring that is simply insane in my opinion. Thatvwealth if story and universe is what makes this place called SPARKS special. Its what makes Sparks FEEL truly reflective of the enormity of the star wars universe and FEEL like a real living campaign. Its what makes great characters with unique adventures because the majority of us havent played everything and certainly not in the same order or the same way. What we have played has been at wildly different times in the world and wildly different and sheet levels and with wildly different judges...so it feels like a rebellion of many characters...no ones experience is the same or even that similar. A reset means several years off all new characters who have all played the same few adventures in more or less the same way. The history is what makes SPARKS different, its what makes it so very slecial and unique. Coke doesnt retire coca cola (well they did and it dodnt work out too well). Twitter isnt gonna get rid if the short tweet. McDonalds isnt gonna stop selling fries and burgers. You dont kill the thing that makes you special to go be just another campaign like everyone else in a 25 year old gaming system. Resetting a new campaign and still letting people "finish up" the old Sparks is also a death sentence. At that point its no longer a living campaign.
I cannot express how strongly i oppose the idea of a campaign reset.
On moving through ROTJ. If we decide to go that way then i feel that we should look to the expanded universe and use that, or at least the main core of it, as canon moving forward. So many of us grew up with Timothy Zhan and it was such a great let down to so many when disney wiped all that out of canon. I really think that using the EU could a big draw to new players who are bummed they dont get to experience that content elsewhere anymore or feel that it has been taken from them. Plus part of what makes Sparks cool is that classic star wars feel. I think the EU would best facilitate the continuation of that classic tone and feel.
So those are the basic stances i will be bringing to and advocating for if elected to council on where Sparks should go in the future.
Luke Siddall
Ryark
Chief Moral(e)ity Officer of the Rebel Alliance
Self-Appointed
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Post by Tim B on Jul 28, 2020 16:05:34 GMT
I think we owe it to move on past RotJ. We've moved through the other 2 movies, and I think moving past RotJ will move us into a full era where we can control the narative (as only the 3 movies and stuff written in is canon per the SPARKS campaign in the first place).
That means we end the Luke/Vader arc, but there are plenty of options. Thrawn from the Timothy Zahn (pre-legacy designation) is a great option. Dark Empire is an option. Or we could use those as guides as we forge our own path. I have something I'm working on that could easily spill into a big bad for the next major SPARKS arc that would be home grown with and NPC I've already made a few players hate.
What I think might be a good thing to do is offer players a good point to retire their character at this turning point, and let them move on. This gives players a choice, and means some of the more experienced and influential characters would move on to positions of power in the Rebellion turned New Republic (which may not happen for a few years in campaign either, as it doesn't happen immediately after ROTJ in most timelines.
Regarding a campaign restart, I'm torn. Yes, some of that is loving my current character, but there's more to it that that. I know many players lover their current characters, and beyond that, there's plenty of modules I'd like to not loose, and it's unfortunately unfair to authors who planned out plot lines that never get a chance to run their course. On the other hand, there are tweaks to be made (For example, there's a ton of extra skills in our version of WEG D6 that aren't in R&E, REUP, or even 2nd Ed (mostly a lot of technical and mechanical skills). Why is Swoop Ops a separate skill when by definition they're just sped up Repulsorlift Ops? Equipment Repair is a skill in one version of D6 we don't have, but instead we have a repair for almost every type of weapon in existence.
Revisions to tiering aren't a bad idea, and solve some issues, but there will always be a monkey in the room of players who are powerful vs new players who are not. It does not help that new D6 characters start fairly lowly and specialized (they're good in a collection of 3-5 skills at most, and often not enough to fill their own desired roll). We have players who have amassed their own armada and could start their own empire if they wished, and many new players just don't enjoy playing with characters like that, even if tiering fixes many of the difficulty curve issues.
Ultimately this isn't the choice of just the council. We need player feedback. But I'm excited to start moving towards RotJ (likely a few different live special events over a year or two). We just need to have a plan moving forward.
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Post by garhkal on Jul 28, 2020 17:43:30 GMT
I've often talked about needing to revamp teering to include equipment, not just ships...
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Post by jasony on Aug 6, 2020 3:58:44 GMT
Tim, we're not really bound by the events in the movies. Our version of RoJ doesn't have to end the Luke/Vader arc. What if....
Emperor: Strike me down with all of your hate and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete.
Luke uses TK to grab his lightsaber and slashes at the Emperor who is laughing.
Vader: Don't choke up, Son!
Emperor's head rolls down onto the floor, his face frozen in surprise.
Vader: See, you choked up like you did in Cloud City. When you swing you need to use your whole arm like this. *steps back and demonstrates*
Luke tries it a few times
Vader: You have it, Son! Keep practicing. Join me and we'll rule the galaxy.
Luke: I'll never join you!!
Vader: I'll give you money, power, fast speeders, and beautiful girls.
Luke: How many beau... Wait, no no!
Vader: *sigh* I had to ask. Look, these Death Stars were a bad idea. I'm going to jet with Death Squadron before the main reactor blows. Here *Force tosses a set of keys to Luke* the Emperor's personal shuttle. Join your friends and enjoy your victory, for now. In time you will know I was right. *proceeds to exit like a boss*
Seriously though, there's no reason for Vader to die if it makes a better story. Vader leading his own Imperial Fragment would keep the threat alive as the New Republic tries to keep the galaxy together.
I strongly oppose a campaign reset. But if we're talking about streamlining the skills we could convert existing skills and calculate the CP it would take to get an obsolete skill to its current level and apply the CP to similar skills then give the character one new skill for every two made obsolete in the upgrade. It won't be perfect, but unless we're going to have everyone rebuild their characters with their total earned CP we may have to settle for it.
The problem I have with tiering gear is that it only makes it harder for lower sheet characters. An experienced character can be sheet 27 with an extra 5 sheets of equipment will be more unfair for a new character who's sheet 2 and doesn't have any special equipment yet. Perhaps there's a way to limit the useful equipment brought by each character (keeping in mind all equipment/weapons aren't made equal). Each player can bring X "points" with an additional Y "points" to be distributed. These could be d6 of blasters, number of grenades, pieces of non-combat equipment, etc just some way to keep the powerful players from bringing in their portable armories and handing decksweepers out like candy. As for droids and ships, I'm not sure they should count unless they're in person-scale combat. IMHO it shouldn't count against the players if they bring a droid with 8d6 astrogation that gets used once or some Droidicas who do nothing but "guard the ship" while the PCs are doing the mission.
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Post by Tim B on Aug 6, 2020 14:46:29 GMT
Tim, we're not really bound by the events in the movies. Our version of RoJ doesn't have to end the Luke/Vader arc. What if.... To address this issue specificly, that would be difficult because SPARKS was founded on only episodes 4, 5, and 6 being canon, so you'd be changing canon. Not saying it's not possible, but we'd need to do a mass approval to make those changes, as it's one of the founding core rules of SPARKS. I agree that Vader, while being a big boogie man, is nothing more than that, as he's been hands off in the campaign to actually fight, despite characters that likely surpass him in skill and ability. I'd be interested in a unique SPARKS threat to move beyond boogieman Vader. |
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Post by jasony on Aug 7, 2020 1:59:45 GMT
Tim, we're not really bound by the events in the movies. Our version of RoJ doesn't have to end the Luke/Vader arc. What if.... To address this issue specificly, that would be difficult because SPARKS was founded on only episodes 4, 5, and 6 being canon, so you'd be changing canon. Not saying it's not possible, but we'd need to do a mass approval to make those changes, as it's one of the founding core rules of SPARKS. I agree that Vader, while being a big boogie man, is nothing more than that, as he's been hands off in the campaign to actually fight, despite characters that likely surpass him in skill and ability. I'd be interested in a unique SPARKS threat to move beyond boogieman Vader. Sounds like trying to add an Amendment to the Constitution. The issue I have with a unique SPARKS baddie to scare the jedi is that it won't live up to the original. Vader is the villain that nearly everyone knows, even those who aren't into Star Wars. He has traits that trigger our fear instincts. Trying to make our own will probably wind up being "It's Vader but...." or coming off like a GMPC. We need a way to make a boogieman that will invoke the same kind of pants-wetting fear of Vader. Perhaps he doesn't have to be a combatant. Perhaps a manipulator and stalker instead and is independent of the Empire (or whatever organization replaces it). When you roll too high (Force skill or otherwise) he/she/it KNOWS and decides you are worthy of their attention. Suddenly, things start going bad for the character. Their ship is sabotaged. Items go missing. All their bounties get triggered at a PI. Their fake IDs get exposed. And so on until the character pays a penance. It won't be serious, at first, but it will get worse until something is done. |
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Dak
Recruit
Posts: 3
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Post by Dak on Sept 1, 2020 1:58:34 GMT
The concern about "scaring the jedi" is a bit of a moot point if Thrawn becomes the big bad. If rules for ysalamiri are written by the council, then that alone should be enough to terrify any force user thanks to their ability to literally shut down any force powers used in their vicinity. If you take into account the fact that Thrawn devised a way for elite stormtroopers to carry them with them in backpacks, and the fact that the force-null bubble they generate grows in size when you get a lot of them in a single place, and you have a recipe to challenge any force user. Other options for bad guys that are already found in Legends canon are Ysanne Isard, The Imperial Remnant, various rogue Moffs, Palpatine's clones, and the Shadow Academy. Or if we want to try and tackle 7-9 somewhere down the line, there's even the First order that could take the reins of "big bad".
As for resetting/tiering and all that, I'm personally in favour of one of two options. Either;
A) hard reset the campaign. Keep running Sparks modules for a while, and run them whenever requested, but ultimately slowly phase them out in exchange for New Republic Sparks. As for existing characters, let people keep running PIs for them to complete storylines, but otherwise retire them all and justify it as "all your old characters are busy actually forming the New Republic, they are too busy for field work now".
or B) Create a retirement level. I.E. - you can play your character to sheet 20/until you spend X number of character points/whatever. But if there is a forced retirement point, then that goes a long way to limiting power creep. If people want to keep playing those characters, then either have the occasional special "high level" module/seminar, or if the second option is taken, they can choose to simply not spend X number of CP on their character, thus letting them continue on.
And really, no matter what option we go with, people are going to end up getting upset. Either by rules being changed in a way they don't like, the campaign being reset, characters being retired, or tiering effecting beloved pieces of gear that can no longer be used. The ultimate goal is going to be what is the best compromise we can reach that upsets the fewest number of people.
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Post by garhkal on Sept 1, 2020 3:18:33 GMT
Well said DAk. No matter whether we keep things as is, or end the campaign, or push some sort of mando retirement, someone's gonna be irked.
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